| 3:53 am | scribechat: | #scribechat The Game’s Afoot! Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novel http://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #topic |
| 4:42 am | ThoughtfulPen: | RT @ScribeChat #scribechat The Game’s Afoot! Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novel http://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #topic |
| 6:56 am | aspiringmama: | @MarfMom I have agents I am following. Also there is #askagent, #writechat, and #scribechat. -i’ve learned a lot there |
| 4:05 pm | teetate: | Well, folks, it’s my favorite day of the week. Why? Because tonight, at 9pm Eastern, is #scribechat!!!http://tweetchat.com/room/scribechat |
| 4:07 pm | teetate: | RT @ThoughtfulPen: RT @ScribeChat #scribechat The Game?s Afoot?Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novel http://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #topic |
| 6:00 pm | LiaKeyes: | #ScribeChat Topic: The Game?s Afoot?Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novelhttp://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #scribechat |
| 6:02 pm | LiaKeyes: | #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline.  #scribechat |
| 6:03 pm | annastanisz: | RT @LiaKeyes #ScribeChat Topic: The Game?s Afoot?Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novel http://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #scribechat |
| 6:04 pm | vleemahoney: | RT @LiaKeyes #ScribeChat Topic tonight (6pmPST/9pmEST) Beating a Path Through the Middle of Your Novel http://goo.gl/fb/0sSLa #scribechat |
| 6:04 pm | llunalila: | RT @LiaKeyes: #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline |
| 6:05 pm | llunalila: | @LiaKeyes would love to get into Lia, but still getting up early for evil day job. Waiting holidays eagerly! #ScribeChat #scribechat |
| 6:05 pm | authormancuso: | RT @LiaKeyes: #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline. #scribechat |
| 6:07 pm | MemoirMommy: | RT @LiaKeyes: #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline. #scribechat |
| 6:12 pm | HeatherMcCorkle: | RT @LiaKeyes: #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline. #scribechat |
| 6:12 pm | LiaKeyes: | @llunalila I bet you are! I miss you, so I’m eagerly awaiting your holidays, too! #scribechat |
| 6:14 pm | llunalila: | @LiaKeyes from 23 August till 20th September I’ll be all for writing Eager really! #scribechat |
| 6:16 pm | LiaKeyes: | @llunalila Yay!!! #ScribeChat |
| 6:17 pm | LiaKeyes: | Thanks for #WW from @GeneDoucette @IMissPadfoot @DanMcNeil888 and all the #ScribeChatRT’s!! |
| 6:17 pm | Larserfam: | RT @llunalila: RT @LiaKeyes: #ScribeChat is tonight! (6 pm PT / 9 pm ET) We’re talking about how to fix Mushy Middles – of your novel, not your waistline |
| 6:22 pm | StickyNoteStory: | Enjoy! I can’t come (DH home!) RT @Scribblerati: Tonight’s #ScribeChat will be on how to avoid sagging middles. Join http://fb.me/Fe5sBv9k |
| 6:25 pm | JLichtenberg: | RT @LiaKeyes: Thanks for #WW from @GeneDoucette @IMissPadfoot @DanMcNeil888 and all the #ScribeChat RT’s!! |
| 11:30 pm | inkgypsy: | Must remember #scribechat at 6pm tonight (PST). Gotta get guinea pig salad 1st. (Not salad made of guinea pigs but don’t blame U for asking) |
| 11:45 pm | graywave: | @inkgypsy Hehehe Guinea Pig salad. Like those bags of “mixed budgie” they sell in pet shops. #scribechat |
| 11:49 pm | inkgypsy: | . @graywave LOL #scribechat – OK flying out the door.. back in a zoom! |
| July 23, 2010 | ||
|---|---|---|
| 12:47 am | LiaKeyes: | I’ve got a glass of Pimms and a bowl of mushroom turnovers from Trader Joe’s – what have you got? #scribechat |
| 12:49 am | LiaKeyes: | Has your once clear vision of the plot of your novel faded? Are you lost in the labyrinth? Got a saggy middle? Find a way out @ #scribechat |
| 12:51 am | LiaKeyes: | If Act 1 consists of setting up the conflict, Act II is where that conflict plays out and escalates. #scribechat |
| 12:58 am | editorialdept: | RT @LiaKeyes: Has your clear vision of your novel’s plot faded? Got a saggy middle? Find a way out @ #scribechat – 6pm PT (starting now!) |
| 12:58 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes I am in a saggy middle, so excited for this discussion! #scribechat |
| 1:00 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate It was your request, as I remember! #scribechat |
| 1:01 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes lol yeah, you’re right. How are you tonight, sweetie? #scribechat |
| 1:01 am | LiaKeyes: | The second act, or middle of your novel, is the longest act?you’ll need plenty of conflict to sustain it! #scribechat |
| 1:01 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate I’m floating on Pimms and a summer concert going on outside my window! #scribechat |
| 1:02 am | LiaKeyes: | So, for those of you floundering in the middle of your novels… what problems are you encountering? #scribechat |
| 1:02 am | cinnie2: | remembered to check in! hoping to get some middle tips. #scribechat |
| 1:02 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes oh how wonderful!! Sounds heavenly. #scribechat |
| 1:03 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes I’ll go since I’m oh so chatty. 4 me, it’s always abt the middle, abt getting from where I start to where I wanna end #scribechat |
| 1:03 am | cinnie2: | @LiaKeyes my prob is understanding how to escalate the crises, rather than just putting crisis after crisis #scribechat |
| 1:04 am | cinnie2: | @LiaKeyes Hi ya! (yep…see prev post) #scribechat |
| 1:04 am | LordCL: | So glad I heard about this. Needing help with Act II. #scribechat |
| 1:04 am | teetate: | @cinnie2 exactly!! Escalate w/o it being melodramatic. #scribechat |
| 1:05 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate Act II has a lot to do with growth. What obstacles and conflict will teach your hero what they need to know 2 get 2 end #scribechat |
| 1:05 am | LiaKeyes: | @LordCL Hey, good to see you! What problems are you having with Act II? #scribechat |
| 1:05 am | editorialdept: | I have trouble maintaining or building tension throughout. I’ll open w/ a bang, and close w/ same, but the middle is blah #scribechat |
| 1:06 am | LiaKeyes: | @cinnie2 Escalating conflict is about cause and effect, where repeating the same errors digs a deeper and deeper hole #scribechat |
| 1:06 am | teetate: | @editorialdept you and I are in the exact same boat! #scribechat |
| 1:07 am | LordCL: | @LiaKeyes How do you set up the same errors without the protag. looking like a complete idiot? #scribechat |
| 1:07 am | editorialdept: | *heh* right now it’s all breather  #scribechat |
| 1:07 am | LiaKeyes: | Each complication should be more important, with greater consequences than the previous ones, followed by brief period of rest #scribechat |
| 1:07 am | cinnie2: | @LiaKeyes cause and effect. sounds good. but hard to know when I box my prot in tighter and tighter, how he will get out #scribechat |
| 1:07 am | wickedmoxie: | My middles tend to get bogged down with too much information OR backstory. #scribechat |
| 1:08 am | cinnie2: | @LiaKeyes yes, I saw your little zig zag today. very good #scribechat |
| 1:08 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes do you think Act II is where we should do so char. development? Not necessarily exposition, just moving them forward. #scribechat |
| 1:08 am | GeneDoucette: | ooh a chat #scribechat |
| 1:08 am | LiaKeyes: | @LordCL It can be that a simple flaw (ie pride) is making the decisions for your protagonist. Succeeds when he puts pride aside #scribechat |
| 1:08 am | SheviStories: | I’m a bit late. What’s tonight’s topic? #scribechat |
| 1:09 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate I think that character development is revealed in action. #scribechat |
| 1:09 am | magsstorey: | @editorialdept I find I have to try to focus on just one scene at a time, and try not to get too obsessed with the big picture #scribechat |
| 1:09 am | editorialdept: | ok-here’s a WIP problem-how to get to know characters (& build relationship) when nothing much happens in story during same time #scribechat |
| 1:09 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Hey, Shevi, we’re shoring up sagging middles tonight! #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | editorialdept: | it’s quite literally a quiet, sweet time in the character’ lives – time when they fall in love during break in action. #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | teetate: | @editorialdept that’s a good one. #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept If nothing is happening it doesn’t belong in the story! #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Ahh, I see what you mean – then the answer is in the characters’ attitudes to the situation. #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | magsstorey: | @editorialdept ie. How do I pull out all the stops rand make *this* scene great? Then smooth pacing out in editing stage #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | editorialdept: | well, it’s not there I wrote the opening, then the last 3rd, and worked around the quiet time #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | cinnie2: | @editorialdept couldn’t u make it more difficult for them to fall in love? #scribechat |
| 1:10 am | GeneDoucette: | @editorialdept I was going to say, a story where nothing much happens isn’t much of a story. @Liakeyes #scribechat |
| 1:11 am | SheviStories: | RT @LiaKeyes: We’re shoring up sagging middles on #Scribechat tonight! Come join us. The chat is already in progress. #scribechat |
| 1:11 am | LordCL: | @editorialdept Sometimes it’s the non-exciting times that really reveal people. #scribechat |
| 1:11 am | LiaKeyes: | @cinnie2 Well, if it’s the scene where they’ve decided they’re in love, then they can worry about the ramifications/cost of that #scribechat |
| 1:12 am | GeneDoucette: | @editorialdept the next point is, if you’re typing, something’s happening. #scribechat |
| 1:12 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes @editorialdept but something is happening there, falling in <3can b done w/ dialog, wi/looks, with gestures. #scribechat |
| 1:12 am | editorialdept: | it’s not that I need to tell that time in their lives, but as it’s written now, the story hops a year+ in the future. #scribechat |
| 1:12 am | MardouLedger: | RT @LiaKeyes: @SheviStories Hey, Shevi, we’re shoring up sagging middles tonight! #scribechat |
| 1:12 am | melissathomson: | I’m struggling with this right now! So far all my books are about 10k words & the “middle” is considerably shorter. #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | editorialdept: | @LordCL That’s actually really helpful. that’s the train of thought I need to get this story going again #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | GeneDoucette: | @editorialdept does anything happen in that year that’s important to the rest of the book? #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | nisajaie: | Are we using an excerpt/example to discuss how to change a sagging middle to a better transition/story? #scribechat #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | teetate: | @magsstorey IMHO you have to just simply write. Edits and later drafts smooths things out. Just get the first draft done. #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | LiaKeyes: | @melissathomson The opening is the intro of the conflict, the middle is how it plays out and escalates (stakes/cost) #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | cinnie2: | @editorialdept could you just skip it and tell it in flashback? #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | editorialdept: | As the story stands now, characters meet, have epic first date…then it’s 1+ year in the future and they’re living together. #scribechat |
| 1:13 am | magsstorey: | @editorialdept Why does the story hop a year into the future? Curious. Have never done it, and not sure why authors decide to. #scribechat |
| 1:14 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept What’s the central conflict of your story? #scribechat |
| 1:14 am | LordCL: | @editorialdept Just be careful not to let it linger too long. I sometimes do that and have to take a machete to fix it. #scribechat |
| 1:14 am | editorialdept: | I need a way to not make the transition quite so sudden for the reader. It skips into future because nothing significant happend #scribechat |
| 1:14 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Seems like the epic first date is backstory. #scribechat |
| 1:15 am | HoodedMan: | “Nothing” happens all the time in real life, so of course that belongs in the story #scribechat |
| 1:15 am | teetate: | @editorialdept sounds like you’re in need of angst/conflict. What’s going to threaten their relationship? #scribechat |
| 1:15 am | LiaKeyes: | @EditorialDept Your first act should introduce the event that changes the status quo of happily living together. #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | LiaKeyes: | @HoodedMan But stories are not real life. We can’t include all the boring bits. #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | LordCL: | @editorialdept Have you thought about having a transitional chapter? #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | SheviStories: | @editorialdept Isn’t it enough to say, “Summer came” if nothing happens until the summer? #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | LordCL: | @editorialdept Just a chapter hitting the milestones. #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | editorialdept: | @teetate I have plenty of that – that’s where the action picks up again. but they need time to get close before that can come in #scribechat |
| 1:16 am | GeneDoucette: | @editorialdept or shift the timeline. Begin with them together, tell the first date in flashback. #scribechat |
| 1:17 am | HoodedMan: | “she just sat there, thinking and doing nothing. Nothing happened and she stared ahead at what wasn’t there”. Important, no? #scribechat |
| 1:17 am | editorialdept: | *ponders* It might work to dive right into the first big conflict (it’s a -modesty aside-brilliant reveal), then flashback begin #scribechat |
| 1:17 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Start the story where the action picks up again. You don’t need the set up. You can sprinkle those memories in #scribechat |
| 1:17 am | gcpeditor: | @teetate @magsstorey I completely agree with this #scribechat |
| 1:17 am | teetate: | @editorialdept this may be a bad exp..but Joss Whedon says Buffy/Angel didn’t happen bc no one would care abt them w/o the drama #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | just joining #scribechat, very timely topic! I’ve just finished setting things up, an am about to embark on ‘the middle’, where it unfolds |
| 1:18 am | editorialdept: | Hate to start w/ my big reveal, but, as much as I hate to admit it, that’s probably a perfect starting point. #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Always arrive late to the party (of your story) #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | GLHancock: | Most novel mss I see begin about at Chapter Four. #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | GeneDoucette: | @teetate that’s awesome: Buffy/Angel I never heard that #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | thomasfloyd82: | I was told if it isn’t part of the story, it doesn’t belong. Then I later realized characters, setting, etc. IS my story. #scribechat |
| 1:18 am | editorialdept: | Best way to fix a saggy middle? Omit it #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | teetate: | @editorialdept I just mean that angst/conflict is what keeps us reading/watching. You have that so what else will happen 2 them? #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | editorialdept: | ok – enough script doctoring for me – I have plenty to work with! Who’s next? #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | HoodedMan: | @LiaKeyes I believe stories are real life or should be close to it. No, we can’t include everything #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | wickedmoxie: | I often write a story out of order and find the skipped bits fill themselves in as the story develops in between. #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | cinnie2: | @GLHancock I need that reminder #scribechat |
| 1:19 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Big reveal = inciting incident, when nothing can be the same again and characters forced to act. Act II they act #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | magsstorey: | @GCPeditor @teetate Agreed! I find I’m either thinking about the story, or writing the story, not both at once. #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | GLHancock: | @cinnie2 You’re welcome. And it was free! #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | teetate: | @GeneDoucette lol yeah, I’m almost as obsessed w/ Whedon as I am w/ Rowling. But, he’s right. #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | editorialdept: | it just feels like my big reveal isn’t significant before you know the characters. Thus having it later in story #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | thomasfloyd82: | If I have moments where nothing happens with the main plot, doesn’t mean things don’t happen with the characters #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | melissathomson: | @GLHancock before pub., author I know was told “you’ve got a great story…but it starts on p. 50.” #scribechat |
| 1:20 am | teetate: | @editorialdept can I raise my hand? #scribechat |
| 1:21 am | GeneDoucette: | @teetate he is. sexual tension is much more interesting than sexual release. #scribechat |
| 1:21 am | GLHancock: | @melissathomson Yep. Introductions are no longer in fashion. (And people say there are not such things as fads in writing!) #scribechat |
| 1:21 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen How to escalate cause and effect of Act II? Introduce a subplot with high stakes! ie love interest at risk #scribechat |
| 1:21 am | cinnie2: | @lisagailgreen Hi! #scribechat |
| 1:21 am | teetate: | @magsstorey lol that’s all of us, hon. #scribechat |
| 1:22 am | teetate: | @NomadicQuill LOL you so WERE! We all were. #scribechat |
| 1:22 am | SheviStories: | Middles sag because of the “unfolding.” It sometimes takes a while to get to the heart of the conflict and then solve it. #scribechat |
| 1:22 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept I agree that you need to make us care about characters first, but Act I can be five chapters/50 pages #scribechat |
| 1:22 am | teetate: | @GeneDoucette umhmm, no one would care what Angel bought at the grocery store. Ya get me? LOL #scribechat |
| 1:22 am | SheviStories: | I’m not a big fan of subplots. #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Subplots are an important tool to a layered story, revealing deeper levels of theme #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | teetate: | @SheviStories Nor am I, really. Unless they connect to the overall plot. #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | editorialdept: | Unless it was a pregnancy test RT @teetate: umhmm, no one would care what Angel bought at the grocery store. Ya get me? LOL #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | wickedmoxie: | @SheviStories I don’t mind subplots as long as they have a connection to main story. #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | LordCL: | Subplots are really hard for me. Anyone have tips? #scribechat |
| 1:23 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate They would care about Angel getting blood from a blood bank, though, that reveals who he is, and his struggles #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | lisagailgreen: | I say just when the characters think they might have a handle on things, throw a wrench in the works. Like you said, escalate. #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | GeneDoucette: | Hey, whatever fills up the pages. Subplots? sure, why not? #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | teetate: | @NomadicQuill LOL dude, my mom asked me to check is James was married. She got ME into Buffy. *hides head in shame* #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | lisagailgreen: | @cinnie2 hello!! #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | GeneDoucette: | @LordCL When I’ve used them, it was to deepen the larger story and inform one of the main characters. #scribechat |
| 1:24 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes right I just mean if it was a ‘happily ever after’ then it would be boring. #scribechat |
| 1:25 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | reading #scribechat, I’m trying 2 catch on 2 “why middles sag”…is it the boring but necessary explanation when moving frm point A to B? |
| 1:25 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen EXACTLY!!! #scribechat |
| 1:25 am | SheviStories: | RT @lisagailgreen: just when characters think they have a handle on things, throw a wrench in. Like you said, escalate. #scribechat |
| 1:25 am | LiaKeyes: | If you’re struggling with insufficient middle act conflict, look at your antagonist. Is he/she strong enough? Proactive enough? #scribechat |
| 1:25 am | gcpeditor: | @GLHancock You want to talk about fads in writing? Having multiple narrators/POVs is so hot right now! #scribechat |
| 1:25 am | LiaKeyes: | @JulieeJohnsonn Sometimes story middles sag because it’s one thing after another, with little to keep my interest as a reader #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes my problem is I’m not sure what the overall conflict is. Still. I have nibbles, but cant focus on a central one. #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | cinnie2: | @GeneDoucette what does that mean? “inform” one of the characters? #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | LordCL: | @GCPeditor Head-hopping really bugs me, but that’s just me. #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | editorialdept: | Another reason for sag can be that there’s not enough plot to go around. Need to create more tensions/conflicts between pt. A&B #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | LiaKeyes: | @gcpeditor No, thanks. Let’s stay on topic. We can talk about fads in writing another week. Great topic, btw! #scribechat |
| 1:26 am | GLHancock: | @gcpeditor What I’d really like to talk about is how to convince wannabees that the fads do exist and they otta honor them! #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | GeneDoucette: | Middles sag because we all know how the story is supposed to begin and end, but the “how we get there” is usually fuzzy. #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | lisagailgreen: | @gcpeditor I have that in one manuscript, but it HAS to be there for the story. And I’m very careful how I handle it #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate What’s the problem you set up by the end of Act One? The problem that forces the main character to take action? #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | GeneDoucette: | @cinnie2 shade, color, deepen, develop, augment… #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | cinnie2: | @gcpeditor I love multiple pov’s #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | melissathomson: | Or middles sag bc there’s only 1 plot thread I care about, like will they end up together?…I need to be more deeply invested #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | gcpeditor: | @melissathomson This is one of our most frequent comments when discussing proposals in editorial mtgs #scribechat |
| 1:27 am | HoodedMan: | @lisagailgreen Escalation is very necessary, & also abrupt Change, making story completely different from how it started out #scribechat |
| 1:28 am | cinnie2: | @GeneDoucette thanks. had an idea it wasn’t just to tell them something. #scribechat |
| 1:28 am | GeneDoucette: | @cinnie2 if a secondary character is important to the conclusion, their motivation can be spelled out in a subplot, basically. #scribechat |
| 1:28 am | johnlechner: | @GLHancock How do you honor a fad in literature? #scribechat |
| 1:28 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes Well, either her mother is taken (literally) or she is hunted. Not certain yet. #scribechat |
| 1:28 am | LiaKeyes: | @HoodedMan One way to escalate is for hero to uncover new information that’s game-changing. #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | GLHancock: | Multiple POVs is not necessarily head hopping. Give each POV a separate chapter. #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes I have to figure out the WHY she goes back to where they came from. #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | GeneDoucette: | @cinnie2 yeah, it’s been a long day; my better words have all been used already. #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | wickedmoxie: | Sometimes my middles get cluttered and unmanageable when I realize I’m trying to tell too much story. #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | lisagailgreen: | @HoodedMan as long as it makes sense. I like it when things tie together nicely even though you don’t see it coming #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | editorialdept: | @teetate So, central thrust of story is to protect/find/rescue mother? #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | thomasfloyd82: | @melissathomson Yeah I think some books can be filled with needless stuff in the middle too, watering the good plot down #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | LiaKeyes: | @johnlechner @GLHancock @gcpeditor Please stay on topic – how to write Second Act #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | cinnie2: | @GLHancock do you think you can ever safely have 10 pov’s? #scribechat |
| 1:29 am | GLHancock: | @johnlechner By not trying to row upstream. Not going against what is currently being used in lit. #scribechat |
| 1:30 am | teetate: | @editorialdept yes in addition to her finding out her whole life has been a lie. #scribechat |
| 1:30 am | cinnie2: | @GeneDoucette no, I’ve heard that phrase before in this context. I just wasn’t sure what it meant. #scribechat |
| 1:30 am | lisagailgreen: | @teetate well, now you have a much more specific question. That should be a lot easier to deal with #scribechat |
| 1:30 am | GeneDoucette: | I haven’t actually run into a second act problem yet. Not saying I won’t but not yet. #scribechat |
| 1:30 am | GLHancock: | @cinnie2 Gaaak! #scribechat |
| 1:31 am | SheviStories: | Let’s say I started out with the MC becoming a vampire. The middle explains why this is a conflict, & that takes time. #scribechat |
| 1:31 am | cinnie2: | @GLHancock haha! ok, answered my question. #scribechat |
| 1:32 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | @LiaKeyes thx! I think I get it! I just went thru some of this with my latest writing: 2 much of a lull, needs action/excitement #scribechat |
| 1:32 am | teetate: | @editorialdept that was one of the nibbles I had. #scribechat |
| 1:33 am | GeneDoucette: | are second act problems a consequence of preplanning or outlining? #scribechat |
| 1:33 am | SheviStories: | @lisagailgreen He has to learn what it means to be a vampire in his world and for him personally. The heart of the conflict. #scribechat |
| 1:33 am | LiaKeyes: | @JulieeJohnsonn Yes! Lulls are useful to let reader catch their breath, but spend most of time “making things worse” #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | teetate: | @NomadicQuill LOL well, in their defense…they are 10 and 7  #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories What price does he have to pay for being a vampire? Did he choose to be one? #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | SheviStories: | Actually, I’m just using the vampire story as an example. So far people tell me it’s hard to put down. #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | I wonder how you get around saggy middles…sometimes you just have to explain things, or walk thu the steps of what you set up #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | editorialdept: | Seems like there are 2 kinds of saggy middles – sag from threadbare plot/events, or sag from overloaded story bloat. #scribechat |
| 1:34 am | lisagailgreen: | @SheviStories when I think I’m dragging, I throw in some action. Something that forces the characters to react #scribechat |
| 1:35 am | LiaKeyes: | @GeneDoucette No, I don’t think preplanning is the culprit of a saggy middle – far from it. Often the opposite is true. #scribechat |
| 1:35 am | teetate: | I don’t necessarily agree w/ this, but Jim Butcher uses a formula and his LJ is a great source of info for it. Will get link. #scribechat |
| 1:35 am | GeneDoucette: | @LiaKeyes hmm #scribechat |
| 1:35 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen Don’t just force the characters to react, let them decide to act, but then suffer repercussions that deepen trble #scribechat |
| 1:36 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | @editorialdept you just summed up the 2 issues with saggy middles quite nicely! Thx! #scribechat |
| 1:36 am | editorialdept: | @SheviStories Ah, but it’s the triggers that reveal his conflict that provide your wrenches. Put temptation in his path, etc. #scribechat |
| 1:36 am | johnlechner: | My problem with middles is keeping all the pots warm on the stove – keeping all the characters/plots moving forward #scribechat |
| 1:37 am | teetate: | For Butcher, the formula works. May not be for all: http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/ #scribechat |
| 1:37 am | HoodedMan: | @LiaKeyes Or like a game-changing lightning bolt from the sky #scribechat |
| 1:37 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Action is the result of conflict, not separate from it. #scribechat |
| 1:37 am | SheviStories: | @editorialdept Sorry, I was just using the vampire story as an example. It doesn’t have a sagging middle. Others of mine do. #scribechat |
| 1:37 am | JulieeJohnsonn: | Thx to all at #scribechat for some great food for thought! Must leave for now. Bye! |
| 1:38 am | SheviStories: | Explain. RT @LiaKeyes: @SheviStories Action is the result of conflict, not separate from it. #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | cinnie2: | @johnlechner that’s my prob with plot threads #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | wickedmoxie: | Sometimes middles fall flat because there are too few or far too many characters. #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: @SheviStories Action is the result of conflict, not separate from it. #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | editorialdept: | @SheviStories We don’t know he’s conflicted until you give us an incident where his resolve is tested, etc. #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate Nice! Thanks for the link to Jim Butcher’s approach. I’ll enjoy reading that after the chat. #scribechat |
| 1:38 am | GeneDoucette: | I basically write like I’m falling down a staircase. I’m beginning to think I’m the only one who works that way. #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | jflamingo2: | @LiaKeyes Also, how do reactions from antagonist come into play in middle act conflict? #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | teetate: | @Room4cubes Jim Butcher. He writes ‘The Dreseden Files’ #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | SheviStories: | LOL! Wish I’d given you an example from a WIP with a sagging middle, but they’re too complicated. Great middle in vampire story. #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Conflict results in action taken to resolve or annihilate conflict #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | teetate: | @NomadicQuill @LiaKeyes my pleasure! #scribechat |
| 1:39 am | wickedmoxie: | @GeneDoucette No so sure about the stairs, but I write what comes to me. I trust my instincts to believe they will connect…. #scribechat |
| 1:40 am | wickedmoxie: | @GeneDoucette … they always do. Only difficult wip for me is the one I outlined before hand. #scribechat |
| 1:40 am | LiaKeyes: | @jflamingo2 Reactions from antagonist are the way things get worse (escalating conflict, ramped up force, more vicious action) #scribechat |
| 1:41 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes The middle is where you get to know the depth of the conflict. Can’t battle the conflict until it’s fully revealed. #scribechat |
| 1:41 am | GeneDoucette: | @wickedmoxie that’s why I was thinking outlining is a factor in sagging middles. #scribechat |
| 1:42 am | SheviStories: | OK, different story: MC is a ghost who doesn’t want to go to heaven. Takes the middle to slowly reveal why & what this means. #scribechat |
| 1:42 am | teetate: | @GeneDoucette usually, it’s not for me. But I’m a control freak and have to know where I’m going. WIP however is kicking my butt #scribechat |
| 1:42 am | twilight2000: | @GeneDoucette Nah – I write as it comes to me, very organically #scribechat – I suspect there’s more of us out there :> |
| 1:42 am | editorialdept: | I think my problem is more w/ sagging between strong scenes than a 2nd Act sag. Hmm…similar resolution, though #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | lisagailgreen: | @GeneDoucette I don’t outline properly. I jot down notes as I go to refer back to but that’s it #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | LiaKeyes: | @GeneDoucette Then outlining became too analytical, lost focus on conflict based on character. Conflict is never arbitrary #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | teetate: | @Room4cubes as I said, it’s his process and not for everyone. #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | johnlechner: | @SheviStories That’s a good insight, that conflict isn’t just set up in the beginning, it’s developed & strengthened throughout. #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | wickedmoxie: | @GeneDoucette I agree. Spent hours trying to make the story fit the pre-determined course of action. Finally chucked the outline #scribechat |
| 1:43 am | SheviStories: | My YAs rarely have antagonists, rarely B&W characters. Conflict more internal that between characters. #scribechat |
| 1:44 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories So the middle of your ghost story is about all the ways he avoids going to heaven, and the costs involved, until.. #scribechat |
| 1:44 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen @LiaKeyes I’m not a hardcore outliner but it helps me especially when my ideas become jumbled. #scribechat |
| 1:44 am | SheviStories: | Exactly. RT @johnlechner: Conflict isn’t just set up in the beginning, it’s developed & strengthened throughout. #scribechat |
| 1:44 am | cinnie2: | @twilight2000 I’m an organic writer #scribechat |
| 1:45 am | wickedmoxie: | @teetate I’m not opposed to the outline, but I usually won’t make one until the first draft is finished. #scribechat |
| 1:45 am | teetate: | @Room4cubes oh God no. I’m not formulaic when I write. Not at all. #scribechat |
| 1:45 am | LiaKeyes: | @johnlechner Sometimes conflict changes. What seemed important at the beginning evolves during course of internal journey #scribechat |
| 1:45 am | lisagailgreen: | I think there should be both internal and external struggle, of course there are exceptions to every rule #scribechat |
| 1:45 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes No…she hates her mother for dying, so she hates herself for dying too. Doesn’t think she deserves heaven or love. #scribechat |
| 1:47 am | overdunne: | Hi all, late again, but here… *waves* #scribechat |
| 1:47 am | teetate: | @wickedmoxie 4 me ‘outline’ =helping me organize what I want to hppn next. Smtimes I need it, smtimes I dont #scribechat |
| 1:47 am | teetate: | @overdunne hi honey! #scribechat |
| 1:48 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: Sometimes conflict changes. What seemed important at the beginning evolves during course of internal journey #scribechat |
| 1:48 am | HoodedMan: | There “should be” forms of tension outside and inside #scribechat |
| 1:48 am | LiaKeyes: | Even those who don’t like to outline should write a sentence that includes hero, problem, source of prob, plan, resolution #scribechat |
| 1:48 am | lisagailgreen: | Just read a book with a great opening,but lost its way in the middle.Too many characters, subplots, couldn’t find the main story #scribechat |
| 1:48 am | SheviStories: | BTW, that was the end of the story. The ghost MC doesn’t want to admit that throughout the book. Conflict is revealed slowly. #scribechat |
| 1:49 am | magsstorey: | @wickedmoxie How do you make your outline after a first draft? A literal physical one, written out? #scribechat |
| 1:49 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen What was the central conflict/theme of that story? #scribechat |
| 1:49 am | SheviStories: | I’m very big on outlines. Not only do I outline the entire story, but each chapter before I write it. It’s my road map. #scribechat |
| 1:49 am | cinnie2: | Have to run. ‘Bye all. Thanks, Lia. #scribechat |
| 1:49 am | GeneDoucette: | First draft IS my outline… #scribechat |
| 1:50 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen Why was the opening great? #scribechat |
| 1:50 am | wickedmoxie: | @magsstorey Yes, but my old highschool English teachers would cringe. It helps me keep track of my revisions. #scribechat |
| 1:50 am | LiaKeyes: | @cinnie2 Good luck with your wordcount goal tonight, Claudine! #scribechat |
| 1:50 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen oh, I hate when that happens. #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | lisagailgreen: | @LiaKeyes boy doesn’t know he has powers, has potential to be evil but wants to be good #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | cinnie2: | @LiaKeyes Thanks, Lia! #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | LordCL: | @GeneDoucette I’m the same way. My first draft is how I find the events of the story. #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | twilight2000: | @GeneDoucette mine too – and oddly, 1st draft serves as 2nd draft as well. I’m sure I’ll develop over time, but for now… #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen or when I just don’t care about the characters. That happened 2 me vry recently. Made me stop reading the series #scribechat |
| 1:51 am | LiaKeyes: | The midpoint of Act II is the center of the entire story, bringing about a shift in tone, new vibe, sense of story evolution #scribechat |
| 1:52 am | lisagailgreen: | @LiaKeyes It was clearly focused on the character and inciting incident. I fell for the kid right away #scribechat |
| 1:52 am | SheviStories: | If you don’t outline, I guess you must edit and re-write a lot, no? #scribechat |
| 1:52 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen Sounds interesting! DM me the title afterwards, if you would. #scribechat |
| 1:53 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen What was the inciting incident? #scribechat |
| 1:53 am | LordCL: | @SheviStories Yeah, but for me that allows the story to go where it wants to go. #scribechat |
| 1:53 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen me too and I love this author and she is HUGE right now. I was surprised. #scribechat |
| 1:53 am | lisagailgreen: | @teetate Oh that would be terrible. That’s what normally draws me in #scribechat |
| 1:53 am | GeneDoucette: | @twilight2000 hah, I know what you mean, I edit through my first draft, so it’s second draft too, really. #scribechat |
| 1:54 am | LiaKeyes: | The midpoint of the second act, provide a knockout moment, a spike of energy to adrenalize story #scribechat |
| 1:54 am | lisagailgreen: | @SheviStories Don’t shoot me, but no. Of course I revise and edit. But not what I think is an abnormal amount #scribechat |
| 1:55 am | lisagailgreen: | @LiaKeyes Ok on DM because I don’t like to “badmouth” anyone specifically bad mojo #scribechat |
| 1:55 am | twilight2000: | @GeneDoucette Exactly! It’ll be interesting to see how agents see that? #scribechat |
| 1:56 am | teetate: | @Room4cubes oh yeah. Did put me off his series. Of course there are like 17 in it so far. #scribechat #scribechat |
| 1:56 am | GeneDoucette: | @twilight2000 I don’t think agents care how you got there half as much as what you ended up with. #scribechat |
| 1:56 am | LiaKeyes: | Midpoint eg: Die Hard: McClane needs attention of authorities. He drops terrorist body on to hood of patrol car. Reinforcements #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | jflamingo2: | @lisagailgreen I’ve felt like this some reads & you’ve explained it great. I couldn’t pinpoint what it was w/ so much going on? #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | inkgypsy: | Did I at least make it for the last 3 minutes? #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | lisagailgreen: | @LiaKeyes kid gets suspended 4 defending his mother’s honor, can’t bring himself to tell her. Ug it’s hard to do this on twitter #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | johnlechner: | Outlining is helpful, but often I don’t know what my MC will do until I write the scene. (Makes for a messy middle, though!) #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | magsstorey: | @LiaKeyes Like killing off a redshirt? I introduced a new character in a rewrite just to have someone to slaughter in Act2 #scribechat |
| 1:57 am | teetate: | Sorry, twitter is giving me the blues tonight! #scribechat |
| 1:58 am | SheviStories: | Still editing my nanowrimo WIP! Can’t imagine what that would have been like if I didn’t start with an outline. #scribechat |
| 1:58 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes yay! I’ve been waiting for examples. Anyone have any others? #scribechat |
| 1:58 am | LiaKeyes: | If character needs outside help but fails to get attention, he has to do something attention-grabbing to accomplish goal #scribechat |
| 1:58 am | thescriptlab: | STORY TRIANGLE: Location http://bit.ly/cqBEY1 Population http://bit.ly/doqjga Situationhttp://bit.ly/bbnxJM #scribechat |
| 1:58 am | lisagailgreen: | @jflamingo2 Thanks. Yes, it really disturbed me. Usually the author follows through. I felt very let down #scribechat |
| 1:59 am | SheviStories: | @lisagailgreen LOL, I was having the same problem trying to explain my ghost story through tweets! #scribechat |
| 1:59 am | lisagailgreen: | @LJBoldyrev Hi! *waves* yes, I jot down too. I have a word file with “notes” on the book. #scribechat |
| 1:59 am | LiaKeyes: | But this is how things escalate in Die Hard. Now he has attention, but place is swarming with cops, FBI, TV crews- new dynamic #scribechat |
| 1:59 am | jflamingo2: | @lisagailgreen It sounds like you fell too soon which doesn’t help the element of mystery or learn to like the character instead?#scribechat |
| 2:00 am | magsstorey: | @johnlechner Ditto! Though would be helpful if they filled me in beforehand #scribechat |
| 2:00 am | SheviStories: | @lisagailgreen why a separate file? Why not just use comments in Word? #scribechat |
| 2:01 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes that’s easier to do when you have an antagonist, much harder when the conflict is internal. #scribechat |
| 2:01 am | inkgypsy: | @SheviStories I forgot the #scribechat ht. Depends on story (how much edit/rewrite) & clarity of scenes/concept had when writing. |
| 2:01 am | LiaKeyes: | As we approach end of Act II, the stakes rise to highest level yet, a major victory for opposition, forcing final confrontation #scribechat |
| 2:01 am | imagechaos: | RT @GeneDoucette: First draft IS my outline… #scribechat |
| 2:02 am | teetate: | Do any of y’all find writing software useful? Just curious. Does it help organize? #scribechat |
| 2:02 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories I honestly think you should introduce an outside conflict that deepens his internal conflict. #scribechat |
| 2:02 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes example? #scribechat |
| 2:02 am | lisagailgreen: | @SheviStories LOL because I learned all those neat tricks AFTER my first novel and it just stuck!! Plus…#scribechat |
| 2:03 am | inkgypsy: | @LiaKeyes #scribechat Have heard of trend among non-outliners to instinctively use a 4 act structure instead of 3. |
| 2:03 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Is your protagonist in love with a mortal? That’s an outside source of antagonism, in a way. #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | LordCL: | @teetate I have a software program that’s really useful. DM me if you want to. #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | lisagailgreen: | @SheviStories some of it is having to do with things that are not going to happen for a while #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | editorialdept: | @teetate absolutely, yes (re: software). I use the simple, bare bones Rough Draft. It has a notes column that works a charm #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | lisagailgreen: | Me tooRT @LiaKeyes: @SheviStories I honestly think you should introduce an outside conflict that deepens his internal conflict. #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | magsstorey: | RT @imagechaos: RT @GeneDoucette: First draft IS my outline… #scribechat |
| 2:03 am | inkgypsy: | @twilight2000 Are you organic (non outliner)? #scribechat |
| 2:04 am | JL_Watkins: | @teetate Scrivener, find it useful to make document notes in the same window as I’m typing in. #scribechat |
| 2:04 am | LiaKeyes: | @inkgypsy Basically, a 4-act structure involves splitting the middle act in two, re midpoint game-changer #scribechat |
| 2:04 am | teetate: | Cool! @editorialdept @LordCL I’ve just never tried any #scribechat |
| 2:04 am | LordCL: | @inkgypsy That’s interesting, because I’m a non-outliner who falls into that. #scribechat |
| 2:04 am | lisagailgreen: | @LJBoldyrev I did too but, I try to input into that one file and at least attempt some organization #scribechat |
| 2:05 am | teetate: | @JL_Watkins well hey you! You little lurker. hehe. Isn’t Scrivener for MAC? #scribechat |
| 2:05 am | thescriptlab: | It helps to at least outline five main elements http://j.mp/bm5R7u #scribechat |
| 2:05 am | jflamingo2: | @lisagailgreen Understood. “Be its own story” – I like that! #scribechat |
| 2:05 am | LiaKeyes: | Fighting the Sag in 10 Steps (from Writer Unboxed) http://writerunboxed.com/2007/01/04/fighting-the-sag/ #scribechat |
| 2:06 am | thedaisyharris: | I plot, then pants, then plot again. #scribechat |
| 2:06 am | SheviStories: | The vampire isn’t the problem. He doesn’t have a sagging middle. He doesn’t need an external conflict or anything else. #scribechat |
| 2:06 am | lisagailgreen: | @jflamingo2 See, you simplify beautifully #scribechat |
| 2:06 am | thescriptlab: | As well as knowing your Five Key Moments http://j.mp/bM3WRV #scribechat |
| 2:06 am | LiaKeyes: | 1. Drill deep and find fresh conflicts, creating new and more challenging obstacles for hero to leap over #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: 1. Drill deep and find fresh conflicts, creating new and more challenging obstacles for hero to leap over #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | LiaKeyes: | 2. Re-examine your one-line story summary to focus your passion for the story. #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | SheviStories: | Disagree RT @LiaKeyes: 1. Drill deep and find fresh conflicts, creating new and more challenging obstacles for hero to leap over #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes you are so a Writing Yoda. #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | inkgypsy: | @LordCL Noticed at F,Fur&Fey w @StaciaKane non-outliner discussed her method. Falls into 4. Other nons piped up: “hey me too!” #scribechat |
| 2:07 am | JL_Watkins: | @teetate Hey! Lol, I had chores – bah! But now I’m all yours Scriv is for Mac – I think you can do similar in ywriter5. #scribechat |
| 2:08 am | LiaKeyes: | 3. Increase the Stakes – Donald Maass’ Writing the Breakout Novel is great for ways to do this. #scribechat |
| 2:08 am | SheviStories: | Drill deep, yes, but no new conflicts, no new anything. Stick with the one–and deepen that. #scribechat |
| 2:08 am | JL_Watkins: | @thedaisyharris I do the same – plot, pants, plot #scribechat |
| 2:08 am | SheviStories: | True. RT @LiaKeyes: 2. Re-examine your one-line story summary to focus your passion for the story. #scribechat |
| 2:09 am | HoodedMan: | I throw structure out with the bathwater. Then I begin writing #scribechat #amwriting |
| 2:09 am | teetate: | @JL_Watkins ah, cool. Glad you’re here. #scribechat |
| 2:09 am | editorialdept: | Crucial to keeping story on track RT @LiaKeyes: Re-examine your one-line story summary to focus your passion for the story. #scribechat |
| 2:09 am | thedaisyharris: | @JL_Watkins It’s a balance, albeit a wonky one. I never fully know what I wrote till I’m revising. #scribechat |
| 2:09 am | gracefuldoe: | RT @LiaKeyes: 4. Add a ticking clock to increase sense of urgency. #scribechat |
| 2:09 am | LordCL: | @inkgypsy I wonder if there’s something to that. Something about the natural storytelling. #scribechat |
| 2:10 am | LiaKeyes: | 9. Twist it up! Every story needs well-planted surprises. Backstory can be a great source for this. #scribechat |
| 2:10 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes ‘writing all these down.’ #scribechat |
| 2:10 am | LiaKeyes: | @LiaKeyes Backstory (skeletons in the closet)…. #scribechat |
| 2:10 am | inkgypsy: | @LordCL Does seem to be a continuing trend among nons – not planned. Happens that way. #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | lisagailgreen: | Make sure you’re always moving forward. If not, throw it out! #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | thedaisyharris: | @gracefuldoe Ticking clock- did that with current WIP. Worked great! #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | LiaKeyes: | @teetate They’re all in this article: http://writerunboxed.com/2007/01/04/fighting-the-sag/ #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: @LiaKeyes Backstory (skeletons in the closet)…. #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | editorialdept: | ack. tweet chat is dropping msgs. Went from pt. 4 to 9. Thank goodness for transcripts! #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes cheers! #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | teetate: | @editorialdept lol yep!!! #scribechat |
| 2:11 am | LordCL: | @thedaisyharris A literal ticking clock? #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | SheviStories: | I’m guessing a back story that reveals the conflict. RT @LiaKeyes: @LiaKeyes Backstory (skeletons in the closet)…. #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept I jumped intentionally, as I’m not so convinced by the others on the list. But you can check out the link #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | LiaKeyes: | @LordCL A ticking clock can be a deadline by which something must be achieved or all will be lost. #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | teetate: | @SheviStories IMHO backstory that isn’t a huge info dump. #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | editorialdept: | @LiaKeyes *heh* not losing my mind, then #scribechat |
| 2:12 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes LOL! And here I thought I was the only one who wasn’t convinced. #scribechat |
| 2:13 am | LiaKeyes: | JK Rowling is great at using backstory revelations (skeletons) to revitalize fascination with characters in conflict #scribechat |
| 2:13 am | SheviStories: | @teetate If the back story is revealed through conflict (and vice versa) it shouldn’t be an info dump. #scribechat |
| 2:13 am | editorialdept: | Reminder about infodumps – just because you’ve fully fleshed out your backstory doesn’t mean it all belongs in story. #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | teetate: | @SheviStories I agree though I’ve read this in several books lately. #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | LiaKeyes: | A film example of how a backstory revelation can be a game-changing attention-grabber: Chinatown #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | inkgypsy: | @StaciaKane Oops – my apology blended with your name. Sorry – remembered that totally wrong then. Must reread that post. @LordCL #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | thedaisyharris: | @LordCL Nah- dragoness heroine needed to find mate before she went into heat. #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | teetate: | RT @editorialdept: Reminder about infodumps – just bc youve fully fleshed out ur backstory doesnt mean it all belongs in story. #scribechat |
| 2:14 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes Right, like Harry’s main conflict is his need for a family, and that’s revealed with the back story about his parents. #scribechat |
| 2:15 am | LiaKeyes: | Revealing backstory info in the form of revelation is one of the main ways to avoid info dump. Create a need to know, then wham #scribechat |
| 2:15 am | LiaKeyes: | @SheviStories Or why is Snape helping Harry? Major backstory revelation #scribechat |
| 2:15 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes ‘sister…mother…sister…mother’ that was twisted and brill. #scribechat |
| 2:15 am | jflamingo2: | RT @LiaKeyes: @teetate They’re all in this article: http://writerunboxed.com/2007/01/04/fighting-the-sag/ #scribechat |
| 2:16 am | SheviStories: | Here’s a question: what story really doesn’t ‘t have a sagging middle? Something you couldn’t put down? #scribechat |
| 2:16 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes umhmm at the last bloody minute. Heh #scribechat |
| 2:16 am | lisagailgreen: | @LiaKeyes was wondering when HP would come up! #scribechat |
| 2:16 am | LordCL: | @thedaisyharris #scribechat |
| 2:16 am | LiaKeyes: | Absolutely! Could have been told up front RT @teetate: @LiaKeyes sister…mother…sister…mother that was twisted and brill. #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | SheviStories: | I find that taking apart what works in what we read helps us make it work in what we write. Stephen King, for me, has no sag. #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | teetate: | @SheviStories ‘Forest of Hand and Teeth’ and ‘The Awakening’ #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen lol I was thinking the same thing. Ha! #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | thedaisyharris: | Wondering if its possible to have a discussion about writing without mentioning Harry Potter. #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | editorialdept: | Old Man’s War – John Scalzi RT @SheviStories: Heres a question: what story doesnt have a sagging middle? …couldnt put down? #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen HP is inevitable – not everyone’s read the same books, so universally known examples are hard to think of! lol #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | JL_Watkins: | Agree! RT @teetate: @SheviStories Forest of Hand and Teeth #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | teetate: | @SheviStories absolutely. in ‘On Writing’ he includes edits for one of his stories. Very enlightening. #scribechat |
| 2:17 am | lisagailgreen: | Oops, kids need me. Gotta go! thanks for the chat @LiaKeyes #scribechat |
| 2:18 am | GeneDoucette: | Harry Potter has a lot of sag. #scribechat |
| 2:18 am | teetate: | @lisagailgreen night, hon #scribechat |
| 2:18 am | LiaKeyes: | @lisagailgreen Great to see you here! Enjoy the kids while you can. #scribechat |
| 2:18 am | SheviStories: | So what makes a story impossible to put down for you? And how do you use that? #scribechat |
| 2:19 am | sharifwrites: | @SheviStories Many stories have no sag. I notice thost novels, too. #scribechat |
| 2:19 am | GeneDoucette: | I’m supposed to be writing answers to interview questions riiiiight now. #scribechat |
| 2:19 am | jflamingo2: | @teetate @LiaKeyes #scribechat. The TV show Lost seemed to do a lot of this which is what hooked me. |
| 2:19 am | LiaKeyes: | My final thought for the night: knowing the ending helps you focus on a target! #scribechat |
| 2:19 am | magsstorey: | @editorialdept Backstories drive me nuts. I tend to know so much more about my characters than I know how to reveal #scribechat |
| 2:19 am | JL_Watkins: | No sagging middle in Ellen Hopkins’ verse novels either. Have to devour them in one sitting. #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | JL_Watkins: | This! RT @LiaKeyes: My final thought for the night: knowing the ending helps you focus on a target! #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes desert before the meal! #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | editorialdept: | @magsstorey Best solution I’ve seen to this is to save “extra” backstory for excerpts and short stories to help promo main story #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | SheviStories: | @magsstorey The trick to revealing back story is to imbue them with meaning. #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: My final thought for the night: knowing the ending helps you focus on a target! #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | jflamingo2: | RT @LiaKeyes: Revealing backstory info in the form of revelation is one of the main ways to avoid info dump. Create a need to know, then wham #scribechat |
| 2:20 am | thescriptlab: | Sometimes a characters entire purpose is to reveal portions of story through exposition. HP is great at that. http://j.mp/ak6KC3 #scribechat |
| 2:21 am | sharifwrites: | RT @LiaKeyes: My final thought for the night: knowing the ending helps you focus on a target! #scribechat |
| 2:21 am | LiaKeyes: | Act One: Draw the bow; Act Two: Docus, aim, release arrow; Act Three: Hit? Or miss? #scribechat |
| 2:21 am | teetate: | @thescriptlab absolutely! #scribechat |
| 2:21 am | LordCL: | @editorialdept That’s a really good idea. I haven’t heard about that. #scribechat |
| 2:21 am | JL_Watkins: | @LiaKeyes although I’d prefer your final thought to be in Yoda-style sentence structure @teetate#scribechat |
| 2:21 am | inkgypsy: | . @LordCL Apologies about the 4 act. Think may have gotten confused with a film director quote. :/ #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | magsstorey: | Time Traveler’s Wife. Multiple reveals perhaps? RT @SheviStories: What story doesnt have sagging middle? ..couldnt put down? #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | LiaKeyes: | Act One: Draw the bow; Act Two: Focus, aim, release arrow; Act Three: Hit? Or miss? #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | SheviStories: | Yeah, too many questions just drives me nuts. Only question I want left unanswered is how MC will deal with conflict. #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | teetate: | @editorialdept these methods also help you to get inside your character’s head. #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | MardouLedger: | RT @LiaKeyes: Fighting the Sag in 10 Steps (from Writer Unboxed)http://writerunboxed.com/2007/01/04/fighting-the-sag/ #scribechat |
| 2:22 am | editorialdept: | *falls over laughing* RT @JL_Watkins: @LiaKeyes although Id prefer your final thought to be in Yoda-style sentence structure #scribechat |
| 2:23 am | LiaKeyes: | @JL_Watkins HA! I have to have a trip to Ireland to be able to talk Yoda-speak. They all do it over there. #scribechat |
| 2:23 am | LordCL: | @inkgypsy No biggie. It was an interesting tidbit, that wasn’t. #scribechat |
| 2:23 am | teetate: | @JL_Watkins LOL! SEE??? Lia is our Yoda. I’m not the only one who thinks this. #scribechat |
| 2:24 am | thescriptlab: | RT exactly http://j.mp/aSDtuN @LiaKeyes: My final thought for the night: knowing the ending helps you focus on a target! #scribechat |
| 2:24 am | LiaKeyes: | Want to read an article full of HUGE twists in movies? http://yechlim.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-twist-endings.html #scribechat |
| 2:24 am | teetate: | Lia “draw the bow you must…” #scribechat |
| 2:24 am | magsstorey: | LOVE It! RT @editorialdept Best solution I’ve seen is to save “extra” backstory 4 excerpts& short stories 2help promo main story #scribechat |
| 2:25 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: Want 2read an article full of HUGE twists in movies?http://yechlim.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-twist-endings.html #scribechat |
| 2:25 am | JL_Watkins: | @teetate fire the arrow, you shall… #scribechat |
| 2:25 am | SheviStories: | Still don’t know what to do to keep interest while the middle reveals conflict depth. Could be I’m worrying for nothing, though. #scribechat |
| 2:25 am | editorialdept: | Stay on target…stay on target… RT @LiaKeyes: ROFL! RT @teetate: Lia “draw the bow you must…” #scribechat |
| 2:25 am | teetate: | @JL_Watkins heheehee #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | jflamingo2: | @teetate I agree and that is why I didn’t get all the seasons watched yet – too many frustrations in loose ends. I need closure. #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | editorialdept: | @SheviStories if it’s revealing, then you’ve got action or events creating the reveal…so no sag. #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | LiaKeyes: | Twists don’t have to be saved for the ending, they can be used to support Act II midpoint interest #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | teetate: | @SheviStories is this the first draft? Have you tried just keeping all thoughts but writing out of your head? #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | SheviStories: | I hope. RT @editorialdept: @SheviStories if its revealing, then youve got action or events creating the reveal…so no sag. #scribechat |
| 2:26 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: Twists dont have to be saved for the ending, they can be used to support Act II midpoint interest #scribechat |
| 2:27 am | jflamingo2: | RT @LiaKeyes: Act One: Draw the bow; Act Two: Docus, aim, release arrow; Act Three: Hit? Or miss? #scribechat |
| 2:27 am | teetate: | @RobChristopher lol obviously! #scribechat |
| 2:28 am | LiaKeyes: | Check out and comment on ScribeChat Review’s post on middles: “The Game’s Afoot!”http://scribechat.com/archives/2577 #scribechat |
| 2:28 am | SheviStories: | @teetate No, it’s finished. Had 4 requests for fulls, & still waiting to hear back. No complaints about the middle though. #scribechat |
| 2:29 am | jflamingo2: | @inkgypsy I found it interesting and @LiaKeyes reply too. #scribechat |
| 2:29 am | magsstorey: | Amen!! RT @SheviStories: @magsstorey The trick to revealing back story is to imbue them with meaning. #scribechat |
| 2:29 am | teetate: | @SheviStories then maybe you are just overthinking? #scribechat |
| 2:29 am | LiaKeyes: | If opening intros character w/problem to solve, middle lets us watch as he takes all poss steps to solve it tho efforts blocked #scribechat |
| 2:29 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: Check out & comment on ScribeChat Reviews post on middles: “The Games Afoot!”http://scribechat.com/archives/2577 #scribechat |
| 2:30 am | SheviStories: | Over think it? What? #scribechat |
| 2:30 am | JL_Watkins: | There’s a saggy middle master class happening over at http://www.writeruniv.com/index.htm for those who are interested. #scribechat |
| 2:30 am | LiaKeyes: | @JL_Watkins Nice! Thanks for the link to the saggy middle class! lol #scribechat |
| 2:31 am | SheviStories: | @LiaKeyes Which is exactly what happens in the vampire story, so no sag. #scribechat |
| 2:31 am | jflamingo2: | RT @LiaKeyes: Check out and comment on ScribeChat Review’s post on middles: “The Game’s Afoot!” http://scribechat.com/archives/2577 #scribechat |
| 2:31 am | matthewschulz: | Hi, all. Looks like I’m here for the end of #scribechat. I look forward to reading what I missed. |
| 2:32 am | teetate: | And guys, don’t forget that we’ve got a great Critique Corner over on Scribblerati:http://liakeyes.ning.com/ #scribechat |
| 2:32 am | jflamingo2: | @LiaKeyes Thanks for a great #scribechat! |
| 2:32 am | LiaKeyes: | @matthewschulz Hey, there! We’re winding down.. I want to skip across the road and join in the open air concert going on there! #scribechat |
| 2:32 am | JL_Watkins: | @LiaKeyes Lol *looks down at middle* (too many first draft Oreos…) #scribechat |
| 2:33 am | SheviStories: | G’night, all! Thanks, Lia! Enjoy the concert! #scribechat |
| 2:33 am | teetate: | @SheviStories I just mean that maybe there isn’t a sag? That’s what I mean by over thinking. #scribechat |
| 2:33 am | LiaKeyes: | Thank you all for sharing your solutions to saggy middles! Next week we’ll be discussing Betsy Lerner’s Forest For The Trees #scribechat |
| 2:33 am | teetate: | @LiaKeyes night, hon and thanks as always #scribechat |
| 2:33 am | LordCL: | @LiaKeyes Thanks for a great chat. #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | SheviStories: | @teetate Oh! Thanks. #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | editorialdept: | Are we doing ends next week or book club? #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | LordCL: | Gotta run all. Thank you for all the advice. #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | jflamingo2: | Thanks to all for a great #scribechat tonight! Great tips and discussion! |
| 2:34 am | jflamingo2: | RT @teetate: And guys, don’t forget that we’ve got a great Critique Corner over on Scribblerati:http://liakeyes.ning.com/ #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | LiaKeyes: | The week after next we’ll be moving on to ENDINGS!!! #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | editorialdept: | Oh. *heh* Nevermind, Forest for the Trees it is! #scribechat |
| 2:34 am | teetate: | @editorialdept Thanks so much for your input on my ickle WIP #scribechat |
| 2:35 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept Ha! Are you ready for it? #scribechat |
| 2:35 am | teetate: | @editorialdept LOLOL #scribechat |
| 2:35 am | SheviStories: | RT @jflamingo2: And guys, dont forget that weve got a great Critique Corner over on Scribblerati:http://liakeyes.ning.com/ #scribechat |
| 2:35 am | editorialdept: | @LiaKeyes goodness, yes. Have a whole discussion guide ready to go. Chomping at the bit. #scribechat |
| 2:36 am | magsstorey: | @p_erbee Next time writer’s block hits on a Thursday night try joining #scribechat ! |
| 2:36 am | inkgypsy: | RT @LiaKeyes: The week after next we’ll be moving on to ENDINGS!!! #scribechat |
| 2:36 am | editorialdept: | @teetate you’ve got a week. Get reading! #scribechat |
| 2:36 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept I’ve been wondering if your Yahoo/Google group was a cleaner way to go for ongoing discussion… e-mail me? #scribechat |
| 2:36 am | inkgypsy: | RT @SheviStories: RT @jflamingo2: And guys, dont forget that weve got a great Critique Corner over on Scribblerati: http://liakeyes.ning.com/ #scribechat |
| 2:36 am | teetate: | Also, guest blogging always encouraged! #scribechat |
| 2:37 am | teetate: | @editorialdept LOL, oh, I’ll finish. No problem. #scribechat |
| 2:37 am | LiaKeyes: | @editorialdept A whole discussion guide? You’re my hero!!! Wow. Can hardly wait myself, now. #scribechat |
| 2:37 am | inkgypsy: | RT @LiaKeyes: Thank you all for sharing your solutions to saggy middles! Next week we’ll be discussing Betsy Lerner’s Forest For The Trees #scribechat |
| 2:37 am | editorialdept: | @LiaKeyes will do #scribechat |
| 2:38 am | inkgypsy: | Looks like it will be worth going over the transcript for #scribechat today (as always). |
| 2:38 am | editorialdept: | @LiaKeyes *cough* I got a bit carried away. Take chat leading duties seriously *grin* #scribechat |
| 2:38 am | teetate: | RT @LiaKeyes: Thank u all 4sharing ur solutions 2 saggy middles! Next week well be discussing Betsy Lerners Forest For The Trees #scribechat |
| 2:38 am | matthewschulz: | @LiaKeyes Very cool. Enjoy. I’ll read what’s been said and the catch y’all next wk. #scribechat |
| 2:38 am | teetate: | @editorialdept I’m a dork…but you have a yahoo group? #scribechat |
| 2:39 am | editorialdept: | @teetate all will be revealed. muahahaha #scribechat |
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